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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 22:21:52 GMT -6
Yeah exactly. They were disposable. It wasn't really a bad plan. But he made it about himself (which Leia kind of hints later on when Holdo 180s in the end?) I realise I am giving Poe a lot of shit, but that's because he was in screen far more than Holdo and did a lot more shit. From her PoV, I can see her misjudgements, from his, I can't really see shit other than being a brat. I think he did learn his lesson tho' Near the end when they did that Charge of Rohan shit. The only time I went, "Yeah, Poe, you messed up bad," was at the beginning of the movie when he foolishly sacrifices the lives of fellow Rebels in a pointless charge against an Imperial dreadnought since, as Leia herself remarked, he had already bought the Resistance ample time to make their escape with his single kamikaze strike. After that, his actions made sense to me and I never thought he "made it about himself" as you say. Poe saw in Holdo an incompetent leader at worst, or one that was clearly at her wits' end at best. Under the circumstances, when Finn and Rose approached him with the plan to board Snoke's ship, he gave them the green light because it was their only shot. The reason he didn't immediately go to Holdo with it is because she had shunned him, effectively closing that door. It was she who placed the barrier between them and not the other way around. When Poe commits mutiny against Holdo, after practically begging her to reassure them that she has a plan, he does so not out of a misplaced sense of ego but because he needs to buy time for Finn and Rose to complete the mission. It is rather amusing that some people are using Finn and Rose's failure as a justification for Holdo's actions (and, indeed, when Holdo chastises Poe after he tells her the plan it does come across as she somehow knowing exactly how events will play out) or the fact that their mission let the Empire figure out that the Rebels were escaping in smaller transports through the magical powers of DJ, a character who had no way of knowing this as neither Finn nor Rose knew Holdo's plan (I think we've established nobody knew besides Holdo, Leia, and maybe the guys prepping the transports). In fact, it could even be argued that had Finn and Rose been successful, and had Holdo also been successful in evacuating the flagship, the Rebels would not have been able to make it back to the flagship in time to take advantage of the 6-minute window to jump to lightspeed (assuming the transports didn't have hyperdrives of their own, since that would introduce an even worse flaw). I also disagree that Poe calling off the Crait attack is indicative of him "learning his lesson," for the context is radically, and I cannot stress this enough, different. What made the bomber run at the beginning of the movie pointless was the fact that the Rebels were more than ready to make their escape. The whole reason for the Crait speeder run is so they could take out the battering ram cannon and buy time for allies to come to their rescue (why the Empire didn't just bomb the base from orbit is anyone's guess). Let me also stress the fact that this was clearly a suicidal attack, as the Rebels had little chance of making it to the cannon intact (and then back to the base) in their decrepit speeders and in the face of so many AT-ATs and TIE fighters. This fact was known to Poe, and Leia, and Finn, and everyone else, before they began their attack. Furthermore, the strike consisted of, maybe, ten people in total. It may sound cruel to say this but if they had taken out the cannon and lost all ten men, it would've been a bargain and bought them some time for any allies to show up. Of course, none do, so again this movie is playing with its knowledge of future events to justify decisions taken by characters. Poe's decision can now be justified by saying, "Oh, well, since nobody was coming to their rescue anyway Poe made the right choice to cut down his losses." Except, of course, he couldn't have known this at the time. The Resistance's situation hadn't changed when Poe called off the attack, he just didn't want to lose more men. His decision made the Crait speeder run pointless (I am getting SO tired of using this word to describe this movie), as their attack did not delay, in any perceptible way, the firing of the battering ram cannon. In the end, both Holdo and Poe make decisions acting on future knowledge so I guess they do share some similarities after all. Poe saw in Holdo all those things without ever knowing Holdo. If he did, we weren't given the chance to understand any past relationship/conflict they might have had. This is where I see Poe being a bit of a turd. These assumptions were made, they were clear and screamed 'I don't think you're good at your job because you're not Leia', and Holdo as an authority figure needed to pull rank. Did she reprimand him unfairly? Sure. But that's because we have a certain bias towards Poe from our past with him, Holdo has reports, she knows who Poe is and his irratic behaviour, and must act upon them. When the guy who just fucked up big time due to his own ego (and it was, there was nothing 'for the Resistance' about the first mission) and waltzes to Holdo, his CO, demanding this that and the other, then I see her actions as justified. Seperated from our own omniscience in the narrative as observers, Holdo is effectivley being tough on a big shot who thinks because Leia is super cool with him, the rest are going to be as well. And yes, she did build that barrier, but again, is Poe really that much of a man baby that he can't take a verbal slap to the face without confronting her again? If he had taken the blow, come up to her and said 'I have a cunning plan' only to be shot down again then I would have backed his idea to go around her back in the first place. His first impressions were based purely on that first spat between them, which was nothing more than a 'who do you think you are?' moment that Poe lost and from there on decided that Holdo was y, x, and z. In that way, he was as responsible, if not far more so than Holdo for placing any barrier between them. The guy clearly got hit by a one-two to the ego and couldn't take it. The fact that Holdo, after the fact, rejects his ideas, doesn't make his own actions justified. His assumptions on the mission's approval were correct for sure, but to assume and base all action on said assumption when anything contrary to that action would have been risk-free tells me that Poe needs to grow up. After all, he was clearly wrong about her as a person as much as he was right. IRRC (yeah my memory is that bad lmao) he was given the plan, and then the coup was planned because he disagreed with it. But because I need to say 'IRRC' I'm just going to take your word on this. Can't be making counter arguments to stuff I have half-memories about. Nah yeah, absolutely. I don't want to base Poe's behaviour prior to the movie's end on could haves and could nots. My opinions on Poe and Holdo and from their PoV at the time. As for your last point. Agreed... somewhat?. It did seem to me he might have learned something from his behaviour. Perhaps visual story-telling keys? I took his decision there as 'lesson learned' because Poe is all about that stuff. The whole first bit is a suicide mission, the chances are just as slim. Even his own idea was nigh suicidal, since nothing indicated as to how they were supposed to leave the Dreadnought afterwards. The fact that he didn't let his pride get in the way and backed the fuck off from something clearly not going to work gave me that impression of Poe realising he was wrong about Holdo. And it was great. This is all good characterisation. The fact that we are discussing if he's a dick or not makes him a good character or else we'd be saying whether he matters or not. My only real beef with this is that nobody makes that super clear to him, and he gets way with it with a slap to the wrist from Leia. |
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