Subject: Let's End Trial By Internet 970 views

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abraham Banned for Spam Hold The Door! I have made 1,141 posts Right now I'm Offline I joined August 2015 I've received 646 likes My gender is Male	Let's End Trial By Internet Apr 15, 2016 2:06:56 GMT -6 Post by abraham on Apr 15, 2016 2:06:56 GMT -6 "Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do subscribe." I love that jingle. Have you ever seen any of Tobuscus' literal trailers? They're quite amusing. Anyway. This thread really isn't about Toby Turner or whether or not he committed rape. This thread is about trial by internet and why it is a bad idea. Both sides in my view are in the wrong. The side that says so and so committed the rape, is wrong. The side that says the person making the accusation is lying, is wrong. Both sides have no evidence to back up their claims. Both sides would be torn apart by lawyers. A jury is your best bet. Jury's have to weigh up days if not weeks (sometimes months) worth of evidence. They have to look at and analyse the arguments offered by both the prosecution and defence. You see court cases are not about lawyers winning. In a criminal court, a lawyer's job is to present the evidence that best fits either the defence or prosecution. A lawyer's job is to ensure that the jury is able to make an informed judgement on the guilt or innocence of the accused. On the internet, both sides are not held up to the kind of scrutiny that a court does. The court room will put both the prosecution and defence through a vigorous and grilling process of examination, cross examination. If there is a faulty argument it will get torn to shreds. So please do not pester Toby Turner and do not pester April Eff. April might be telling the truth. April might not be telling the truth. We don't know. Toby Turner could be innocent. He could be guilty. Either way, I feel the assumption should be "innocent till proven guilty". Or better still, remain on the fence even if he has been found guilty in a court of law. Appeals do exist after all.
Hello everyone! Edited by abraham [Apr 17, 2016 2:44:59 GMT -6] The title was misleading. Reply Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top

abraham Banned for Spam Hold The Door! I have made 1,141 posts Right now I'm Offline I joined August 2015 I've received 646 likes My gender is Male	Let's End Trial By Internet Apr 15, 2016 2:09:24 GMT -6 Post by abraham on Apr 15, 2016 2:09:24 GMT -6 I do want trial by internet to be a thing of the past. None of us are qualified to pass judgement on this matter. Only the jury who have sat through the court case are. Maybe if the court case was televised and we could witness both sides of the case, then we'd be more qualified.
Hello everyone! Edited by abraham [Apr 15, 2016 2:10:51 GMT -6] I wanted to add a video. Reply Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top

Deleted I have made 0 posts Right now I'm Offline I joined January 1970	Let's End Trial By Internet Apr 15, 2016 8:51:26 GMT -6 Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2016 8:51:26 GMT -6 Who?
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abraham Banned for Spam Hold The Door! I have made 1,141 posts Right now I'm Offline I joined August 2015 I've received 646 likes My gender is Male	Let's End Trial By Internet Apr 15, 2016 11:58:36 GMT -6 Post by abraham on Apr 15, 2016 11:58:36 GMT -6 Apr 15, 2016 8:51:26 GMT -6 @puddi said: Who? He is a youtube content creator.
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Deleted I have made 0 posts Right now I'm Offline I joined January 1970	Let's End Trial By Internet Apr 15, 2016 12:15:03 GMT -6 Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2016 12:15:03 GMT -6 Neat.
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Fire Demon Banned for Spam More chocolate please! I have made 2,563 posts Right now I'm Offline I joined August 2015 I've received 566 likes My gender is Male	Let's End Trial By Internet Apr 16, 2016 0:39:12 GMT -6 Post by Fire Demon on Apr 16, 2016 0:39:12 GMT -6 Cool story bro
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Deleted I have made 0 posts Right now I'm Offline I joined January 1970	Let's End Trial By Internet Apr 16, 2016 0:47:19 GMT -6 abraham likes this Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2016 0:47:19 GMT -6 If he didn't do it, then that sucks because Rape allegations are life ruining and hard to recover from. I hate NateWantsToBattle because he did that once a while back to a guy. But if he did commit rape that's gonna completely destroy his reputation with anyone respectable, unless the 9 year olds that watch his MineCraft LPs don't actually care. Which is likely, but I don't see him progressing anywhere, no more spots on Nickelodeon or roles in bad horror movies for Toby anymore. Also makes him a piece of shit. But that goes without saying. Though Abe, the clickbait title for this thread is at odds with the point you're trying to make. Don't use Clickbait titles. Don't be Buzzfeed.
Edited by Deleted [Apr 16, 2016 0:50:56 GMT -6] Reply Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top

abraham Banned for Spam Hold The Door! I have made 1,141 posts Right now I'm Offline I joined August 2015 I've received 646 likes My gender is Male	Let's End Trial By Internet Apr 17, 2016 2:43:42 GMT -6 Post by abraham on Apr 17, 2016 2:43:42 GMT -6 Apr 16, 2016 0:47:19 GMT -6 @thecloneslegacy said: Though Abe, the clickbait title for this thread is at odds with the point you're trying to make. Don't use Clickbait titles. Don't be Buzzfeed. Point taken. I shall take this into account. Thanks for the advice.
Hello everyone! Edited by abraham [Apr 17, 2016 12:37:21 GMT -6] I had something I wanted to add. Reply Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top

Deleted I have made 0 posts Right now I'm Offline I joined January 1970	Let's End Trial By Internet Apr 19, 2016 16:48:46 GMT -6 abraham likes this Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2016 16:48:46 GMT -6 I trust Philly D on this, probably one of the few A list celebs on YT who isn't a complete fucking asshole. Basically: Toby is an asshole and he probably didn't rape anyone, but he's still an asshole that could. Not the rape we have in our heads (forceful/abusive), but the kind that usually goes unmentioned and confused with consent. Like that whole 'no means yes' business. Besides, should trial by internet stop? Sure, but it isn't. The internet is wider example of something that's been happening for years. Dramas in highschool: did Graham really smoke weed in the toilets? Or even dramas at work: did Puddi really piss in Geth's 80%-on-sale Coffee? I really hope he did! But anyway, sooner or later the law will get involved (if it hasn't already), and this mess will come out clear. And whatever the conclusion of this is, I just Toby gets some help. From what I understand that man needs rehab and some serious therapy. Makes cool vids... His Let's Plays are shite tho'
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abraham Banned for Spam Hold The Door! I have made 1,141 posts Right now I'm Offline I joined August 2015 I've received 646 likes My gender is Male	Let's End Trial By Internet Apr 20, 2016 17:29:16 GMT -6 Post by abraham on Apr 20, 2016 17:29:16 GMT -6 This may or may not be the case. If so, please correct me. A question that keeps coming up is: why don't they go to the police? So a terrible event has happened to an individual. Now they can go to the police where they will be bombarded with lots of questions. This will be followed by a really long court case where they are treated as a liar by a very obnoxious defence lawyer. Then there is the possibility that after this very traumatic process, the criminal won't receive justice. Though the court of social media, a prosecution is guaranteed. Granted it won't lead to any time in prison but it has some benefits. The accused will have their entire life ruined. They will be unemployable, their marriage might end (if they're married) and the social services will immediately take their children away. Further more the accused will be harassed repeatedly. Even friends and family of the accused will get a battering from on line media. The person will become toxic waste, and no one will want to befriend due to fear of ostracisation. So social media provides one form of punishment to the accused. Sure the accused may continue to commit said crime (if they are actually guilty that is), but at least they had some comeuppance. So yes, I can see the appeal of going to Twitter and Tumblr instead of going to the police. I would urge the general public and employers alike to not pay any attention to internet drama. There is simply no proof. The court of social media doesn't care about "innocent until proven guilty". The court of social media says "if you've been accused then you're guilty". Evidence be damned. If you have a serious allegation, go to the police and make your case as soon as possible. That way you can greatly increase the odds of the perpetrator going to prison.
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abraham Banned for Spam Hold The Door! I have made 1,141 posts Right now I'm Offline I joined August 2015 I've received 646 likes My gender is Male	Let's End Trial By Internet Apr 20, 2016 17:38:13 GMT -6 Post by abraham on Apr 20, 2016 17:38:13 GMT -6 What % of [insert allegation here] are false? This is a completely useless question that has a completely useless answer. The correct answer is "we don't know." Some people say "I'm sure most allegations are true". Some people say "I'm sure most allegations are false". Even with a good legal system where an unbiased jury listen intently to two exceptional lawyers putting on strong cases, it is impossible to be absolutely certain of the verdict. That is why we have appeals against decisions. Yes "innocent till proven guilty" and a jury based legal system is flawed. Deeply flawed. However it's the best we have. We will never know what percentage of people found guilty are actually innocent. We will never know what percentage of allegations made are false. What we can tell is what percentage of cases lead to retrials. We can also tell what percentage of the accused go to prison based on flimsy evidence. So when people say you should automatically believe or disbelieve all criminal allegations, I think it's better to stay on the fence. If someone has an allegation they should go to the police and let the court decide.
Hello everyone! Edited by abraham [Apr 20, 2016 17:40:26 GMT -6] I had something I wanted to add. Reply Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top

Deleted I have made 0 posts Right now I'm Offline I joined January 1970	Let's End Trial By Internet Apr 20, 2016 17:42:49 GMT -6 abraham likes this Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2016 17:42:49 GMT -6 A prosecution is guaranteed. That line of thought is disgusting and abhorrent, that means innocent people can have their lives ruined because someone had a hissy fit over someone else. In my opinion anyone who falsely claims rape is just as bad as rapists themselves, makes it harder for real victims to get justice. Also in my opinion letting a single guilty person go is better than throwing an innocent in prison. Imagine if you got a life sentence for something you didn't do?
Edited by Deleted [Apr 20, 2016 17:43:10 GMT -6] Reply Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top

Deleted I have made 0 posts Right now I'm Offline I joined January 1970	Let's End Trial By Internet Apr 20, 2016 18:40:16 GMT -6 abraham likes this Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2016 18:40:16 GMT -6 Apr 15, 2016 2:06:56 GMT -6 abraham said: A jury is your best bet. Jury's have to weigh up days if not weeks (sometimes months) worth of evidence. They have to look at and analyse the arguments offered by both the prosecution and defence. You see court cases are not about lawyers winning. In a criminal court, a lawyer's job is to present the evidence that best fits either the defence or prosecution. A lawyer's job is to ensure that the jury is able to make an informed judgement on the guilt or innocence of the accused. On the internet, both sides are not held up to the kind of scrutiny that a court does. The court room will put both the prosecution and defence through a vigorous and grilling process of examination, cross examination. If there is a faulty argument it will get torn to shreds. Your view of how the legal process works sounds a bit idealistic. Lawyers are all about winning. Juries are uninformed and biased and make bad, wrong decisions all the time.
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Deleted I have made 0 posts Right now I'm Offline I joined January 1970	Let's End Trial By Internet Apr 20, 2016 18:44:11 GMT -6 abraham likes this Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2016 18:44:11 GMT -6 Apr 20, 2016 17:29:16 GMT -6 abraham said: This may or may not be the case. If so, please correct me. A question that keeps coming up is: why don't they go to the police? So a terrible event has happened to an individual. Now they can go to the police where they will be bombarded with lots of questions. This will be followed by a really long court case where they are treated as a liar by a very obnoxious defence lawyer. Then there is the possibility that after this very traumatic process, the criminal won't receive justice. Though the court of social media, a prosecution is guaranteed. Granted it won't lead to any time in prison but it has some benefits. The accused will have their entire life ruined. They will be unemployable, their marriage might end (if they're married) and the social services will immediately take their children away. Further more the accused will be harassed repeatedly. Even friends and family of the accused will get a battering from on line media. The person will become toxic waste, and no one will want to befriend due to fear of ostracisation. So social media provides one form of punishment to the accused. Sure the accused may continue to commit said crime (if they are actually guilty that is), but at least they had some comeuppance. So yes, I can see the appeal of going to Twitter and Tumblr instead of going to the police. You left out the part where in both cases the accuser is also viciously harassed whether it's true or not. So that's a big part of why they often don't go to authorities and also negates some of the supposed 'appeal' of trying to ruin someone's life on social media just for shits and giggles. Not that it doesn't happen.
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abraham Banned for Spam Hold The Door! I have made 1,141 posts Right now I'm Offline I joined August 2015 I've received 646 likes My gender is Male	Let's End Trial By Internet Apr 21, 2016 5:04:44 GMT -6 Post by abraham on Apr 21, 2016 5:04:44 GMT -6 Apr 20, 2016 18:40:16 GMT -6 @puddi said: Your view of how the legal process works sounds a bit idealistic. You're quite right about this. Idealism and reality don't always go hand in hand. Lawyers are all about winning. Depends on the lawyer. Though again, fair point. Juries are uninformed and biased and make bad, wrong decisions all the time. Maybe not all the time. How often this happens is simply unknown. That said, most legal systems in the world have an appeals process. If the original court case is deemed to be inadequate a retrial often follows. I still stand by my statement that the jury are the best qualified individuals to pass judgement. This is because they have heard the arguments and evidence of both the prosecution and defence. Both sides of the case are often heavily scrutinised and a decision is made by jurors debating on the evidence presented. Quite often there will be a legal adviser who will assist the jury in making an informed decision. If the jury are uninformed then that is the fault of the court. The prosecution and defence quite simply weren't doing their jobs. If the jury are biased then that is the fault of the jury. This would also be the fault of the court for a poor jury selection. As for the jury making bad and wrong decisions, well how do you determine that the jury has done this. It's a bit subjective. You left out the part where in both cases the accuser is also viciously harassed whether it's true or not. So that's a big part of why they often don't go to authorities and also negates some of the supposed 'appeal' of trying to ruin someone's life on social media just for shits and giggles. Not that it doesn't happen. Fair point. This is why I have a problem with the general public getting involved with legal matters. Leave it to the police and the courts.
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Deleted I have made 0 posts Right now I'm Offline I joined January 1970	Let's End Trial By Internet Apr 21, 2016 11:31:32 GMT -6 abraham likes this Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2016 11:31:32 GMT -6 Apr 21, 2016 5:04:44 GMT -6 abraham said: Depends on the lawyer. Though again, fair point. From what I hear, at least on the prosecutor's side in the US, it is a pretty cutthroat culture. Your value as a prosecutor is measured by how good you are at securing convictions, whether they're guilty or not. Maybe not all the time. How often this happens is simply unknown. That said, most legal systems in the world have an appeals process. If the original court case is deemed to be inadequate a retrial often follows. I still stand by my statement that the jury are the best qualified individuals to pass judgement. This is because they have heard the arguments and evidence of both the prosecution and defence. Both sides of the case are often heavily scrutinised and a decision is made by jurors debating on the evidence presented. Quite often there will be a legal adviser who will assist the jury in making an informed decision. If the jury are uninformed then that is the fault of the court. The prosecution and defence quite simply weren't doing their jobs. If the jury are biased then that is the fault of the jury. This would also be the fault of the court for a poor jury selection. As for the jury making bad and wrong decisions, well how do you determine that the jury has done this. It's a bit subjective. It's better than trial by public opinion, sure. As for wrong decisions, the innonence project is the most clear-cut example. People on death row exonerated by DNA evidence. But there are surely cases in the opposite direction as well, guilty people being judged not guilty. And there is a fear for any would-be accuser pressing charges that in addition to having their own reputation dragged through the dirt by the court process and public opinion, the alleged rapist will end up being found not guilty. Fair point. This is why I have a problem with the general public getting involved with legal matters. Leave it to the police and the courts. Well you can't stop people from having an opinion if their friend is being accused of rape or their friend says they've been raped. I do think that going to court is the alternative that should be pursued rather than defaming someone publicly on the internet, which may end up in court in a roundabout way anyway, but I could understand why someone wouldn't want to take it to court, for the reasons above, even if the truth is on their side. So does that mean they should risk going to court or stfu about it? That does seem like a punishment on top of what they already experienced, but I don't know a decent alternative.
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abraham Banned for Spam Hold The Door! I have made 1,141 posts Right now I'm Offline I joined August 2015 I've received 646 likes My gender is Male	Let's End Trial By Internet Apr 21, 2016 17:35:12 GMT -6 Post by abraham on Apr 21, 2016 17:35:12 GMT -6 Apr 21, 2016 11:31:32 GMT -6 @puddi said: Fair point. This is why I have a problem with the general public getting involved with legal matters. Leave it to the police and the courts. Well you can't stop people from having an opinion if their friend is being accused of rape or their friend says they've been raped. I do think that going to court is the alternative that should be pursued rather than defaming someone publicly on the internet, which may end up in court in a roundabout way anyway, but I could understand why someone wouldn't want to take it to court, for the reasons above, even if the truth is on their side. So does that mean they should risk going to court or stfu about it? That does seem like a punishment on top of what they already experienced, but I don't know a decent alternative. You know what I like about you Puddi? You embrace nuance. You don't absolutely take positions A or position B. You carefully consider both positions and thus have opinions that are informed by both sides of the argument. Even when I disagree with you, I still feel that I have gained something from discussing very complex topics with you. So with that said, I wanted to address your last point. Having an opinion on legal matters isn't quite the same as getting involved. For example, I had my opinion on the Oscar Pistorious case. Heck this opinion fluctuated from manslaughter to murder, back to manslaughter and then to murder. I was never at any point involved. I was a spectator. I enjoyed discussing this case with other people and hearing their opinions. Should the accuser share their story with others? Well should is the wrong word. Let's just say that they are entitled to do so. The accuser has every right to talk to others about this. I would encourage victims to go to court and seek help. Help could come in the form of a trustworthy friend who is looking out for them, counselling from a professional, a decent lawyer who will help them achieve justice and the police. The internet is an avenue by which rape victims can share their experiences. Please note that there are plenty of forums where one can go, as well as on line counselling. These avenues tend to involve sympathetic individuals who stay clear from drama. However if you feel a space such as Twitter or Tumblr works for you then go for it. I am not angry with April Eff for going on Tumblr with her detailed post. I take issue to the people who have been harassing both April Eff and Toby Turner. Both sides are in the wrong. Both sides are jumping to conclusions without evidence. Please note that it is not just April Eff and Toby Turner who receive harassment. It is their respective friends and families. This makes it harder for rape victims to come forth, and it also ensures that the lives those falsely accused of rape are ruined. If you're a rape victim, I wouldn't advise sharing on social media. There are better ways of achieving catharsis.
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