I don't think you know what elitism is. I know I've got my moments, but calling a non-expert out on being an idiot is just a service to society. Also I don't think demanding you substantiate your claims is elitism, nor is implying that the only way you'd make it through was if you were monied in. Insulting: Yes, in the case of the latter. Elitism? No. 


But also I see your papers now, snuck in at the tail end of the conspiratorial and dystopian rambling where we revist the entire case from your perspective that russia is responsible for trolling or pushing the story but you literally can't produce any evidence. for.



Well at least that ties up the missing antecedent there for "them" still sounds like the unsubstantiated ravings of a lunatic who has consumed far too much social media in their information diet. You do have fun with that.  

Links right wing media known for attested slanted views, disinformation, and overt bias. Good choice. Although that looks like there might be two links in there from the BBC code. Might have to try clicking through to get that wapo link later.

Also has he still not released them? Why can't we just FOIA them? Are these personal records that are not property of the US? Guess I don't understand why these are such a big deal? If they're personal i dont see why anyone would care. We have his voting record and his public record. It doesn't matter. Personally if Tara reade's being dishonest I think she's more after a financial settlement than some vague old papers fox wrote about a year ago.

That is the simplest explanation, if we're going to doubt her story. (Personally I still think it should be investigated. Every accusation deserves equal and fair investigation I said this for every one of the Republicans even when it was reportedly flimsy I will maintain this stance.)



The burden of proof sadly isn't on me. I asked the questions "why" "for what purpose" "where is the evidence" forever ago now. I haven't made any distinct claims really excepting a few which I've supported. I have broken down and analyzed some of the information you've chucked from Twitter. And I remain unconvinced for reasons I've already stated.

It's not my job to prove your claims. Your argument is not mine to construct. Your stance and your claims have largely been unsupported and my own digging doesn't substantiate them. And my perspecrive proffers more common place explanations for your complex conspiracies. EOD your claims your job to prove your claims.

Personal stuff that doesn't fucking matter





I really don't know what you're talking about here. If you'd like more support for the claim that democrats and Republicans are the same politically we could look to hyr he's posted materials on it before. Dreamleaf has made valid points on comparisons between the parties, obediah I believe has at times as well, ravensword seems to concur from their participation. I know I've tried to explain and used incidences from media ocurences to defend and support those claims. We can have that discussion if you'd like but it might take time to respond to it. And it will not be "are the same" but rather "similar enough that the difference is insubstantial outside of weak social promises." And would likely center around weak populist plans from democrats clearly designed to Garner partisan support (like impeacent was), shows and displays of party loyalty, unwillingness to curb wealth and corporate oligarchy, participation in corporate oligarchy, subversion of American rights and democratic process, positive reaction to use of force abroad whole publicly decrying it, lack of support for programs that would directly address social issues they claim to be for addressing, and Russia <=> Deep State, oh and the shift to right that's happening. Biden is a very conservative liberal. And he himself is very symbolic of many of these things. I'd honestly be surprised if your pro-Biden bias would tolerate conversation around any of these points especially when it comes to scrutinizing his policy and comparring it to conservatives across the board. The only reason be doesn't have more widespread conservative conversions is because he is very much on the blue team not the red team.

But that is a conversation I'm willing to have if you really want that. And I am prepared to mount a defense of that if you're asking me to. Traditionally you have out trolled the conversation there and it's just not worth discussion. Though I feel that horse is pretty well beat.

Also I can see the comparison you're making to the emails but I think you're inappropriately conflating the two incidences. One case has clear evidence bordering admission of Russian activity. The other has some dubious activity that could be Russian or otherwise and nothing that conclusively demonstrates that. but yeah last pm to you. I'll check the next display post to see if you want to have the conversation about why Dems and reps are essentially the same creature. But I'm not going to respond regarding this any longer. Cyclic arguing, personal attacks, and beating a dead horse aren't fun.

And as an apology to saner people, than myself and goat, for arguing with goat enjoy this fun article out of Kentucky

www.cnn.com/2020/04/28/us/andy-beshear-tupac-shakur-kentucky-unemployment-trnd/index.html

And I quote:


I got a giggly.

Yeah, the "Russia troll" evidence from twitter posts is definitely flimsy, and I really wouldn't bother with it unless an linguistic expert got involved, and I doubt anyone serious wants to involve themselves in a twitter syntax analysis like this.

We use Twitter for raw data all the time because it can be publicly accessed and that voids a need for a IRB approval some of the time. I'm almost positive someone somewhere for the government is doing a syntactic analysis of the tweets scouring for trolls. (I would actually find this really fun if I actually wanted to do it but I have no real reason to do it. It's kinda in my alley, like part of what makes me a good teacher is that I sit and look at my students grammatical mistakes when they occur and try to motivate what system is running interference from their native language in their practical application of english, so I ~kinda~ do this plus my focus is morpho-syntax because I'm a massochist and evidently hate myself.)

But most things I've read really focus that the trolls are trying to blend. And evidence from the last cycle and the post 2016 boom demonstrate that Russia has come along way from the early attempts where a cursory glance at someone's English could say alot about where they were from in one or two posts. They've taken it to a very professionally organized level (even the articles that goat posted point this out) where we need more contextual information to really pinpoint them and something as overt as lack of articles or stilted writing to me sounds like someone trying to play up foreignness. It's like too telegraphed and exploits standard stereotypes about Russian. Like I think I said somewhere that I could see the Russian trolls pushing the Russian trolls mythos to sow more chaos than Russian trolls actually pushing the story because it fits the scenario alot better I think.

We've definitely looked at stranger things. I mean I've presented my research on lol at University of Toledo before (just a graduate conference) and I've read a couple of dissertations on lolspeak as a dialect of English. We are odd pandas we linguists are. So I will be totally honest when I say I am 100% sure someone is writing a Dissertation on the linguistic habbits of Russian trolls on Twitter or at least a squib but they're using confirmed data from accounts that have been shut down using the time machine to get access to that. Not speculative things from 2020 as they occur.

As for everything we talked about. I'm just skeptical it fits the MO we've established for them. It's too much crazy kinda like the tiger king. I mean really think about it, if We take the complaints against Tara Reade seriously: she worked in politics for Joe, claims to have been assaulted stopped doing that roamed the country changing names and doing petty crimes (per goat) and then volunteers with horses for a time only to have that implode in a strangely Joe exotic way, and then is lodging claims of rape at Biden... Like... Could this get more Joe Exotic? Like I won't make claims about the quality of her claim nor will I disparage the (potential) victim here but I will definitely say that this is much louder than a troll operation wants to be.


Edit also sorry that was a wall of text ><

Basically tldr:

Linguists research crazy shit so yeah I definitely believe someone is out there right now writing about it but they aren't using any data that hasn't been verified as a troll account officially.

And the whole thing is too Joe exotic to be Russian trolls too much noise too much crazy too much too much. Regardless of her legitimacy or trustworthiness this whole thing is too much like the sequel to Tiger King. And that's too loud I think for the MO of Russian trolls as has been discussed.

Nice, I hear that the Feds have been denying stealing supplies, so at least now if they do have the authority to seize the kits, they'll at least have to prove they are who they say they are and go on the record saying that they are, in fact, seizing supplies.

Going to make a long post to cover everything and it should all be read for even a chance for a discussion to happen or else it will go nowhere as it always does. It's mostly towards Lopez but anyone can join in because I rather it be open than just Lopez and me going at each other because yes we'll have that discussion if he is actually serious. Will be using sections, short and long ones, on all the points.


Tara Reade failed but what about her emails his senate papers?:

First, sorry about the links being broken in there, had a migraine the other night that I needed to sleep off the whole day to fight off. So now I am up and writing this as I play Shogun 2 weeeee. But yes Fox and WaPo's Matt Viser both were looking for his senate papers about a year ago. It's something the media wants their hands on for awhile now.

And yes you're asking good questions here and deserve an elbow bump. Not being an ass here, I truly am happy a breakthrough is starting to form here from you. Those papers don't matter and should not matter. If there was a complaint about sexual harassment, it would be in the senate files not his own personal record and such. We can even look up online to see if such a thing was ever filed and nope, no issues with staff whatsoever from Biden's time as a senator. Now that Biden early yesterday sent a letter to the Sec of the Senate to do a full search for Tara Reade's complaint and release it if it exists, the ball is in Tara's court. Now Tara's claiming there may not be a complaint, and—if there is one—it won’t mention sexual harassment or assault. The story is dead with this because without evidence from her, there can't be an investigation outside of the press investigation that have all said there is no evidence. The onus is not for Biden to prove his innocence but for Reade to prove his guilt; that's a basic foundation of our justice system.

Yet the media that is acting like her PR team is still pushing for Biden's papers more than taking  the allegations seriously or lol saying we have enough evidence to drop Biden for fucking Bernie. So let's get into the whys.

Biden's personal papers from January 3, 1973 to January 15, 2009 being released will result in only this happening:

1) Tara Reade is not mentioned outside of being mentioned as part of his staff

2) Republicans and assorted ratfuckers begin trawling the papers for shit like "March 13 1975: met with guy" which they will then hold up as undeniable proof that Biden is in fact the worst thing since Hitler

3) Trump will continue to release nothing, the media will consider this okay

4) That's it, that's all that's going to happen



Hillary releasing the emails didn't help shit and made things worse by birthing shit like Pizzagate (she had no way of knowing this, of course, hindsight is 20/20.) The lesson is that asymmetrical transparency is worth fuck-all because Republicans don't pay a price for not releasing shit, while Democrats get the full bullshit train for not releasing shit.



This isn't even getting into the actual practicality of releasing the records, which are not digitized and the University of Delaware is completely shut down for obvious reasons.


That one stupid reporter who couched Tara and her brother has been expressing wants for Biden to drop or for Bernie to get back in the race. These types are still angry they lost via democratic means so rat fuck away because they can't win an election.

And this has been my opinion from the start, media that is anti-Biden, along with Russia, will push these types of stories to cause chaos because it worked last time. But Joe can't be Hillaryed.

Like I agree with you Lopez, I mainly think she wants money out of all this based on all the evidence, she is 430K in debt. However she is not doing it the normal way for a financial settlement, she is pushing political agendas to hurt Biden overall like Biden's papers being made public now. So my best guess is someone is promising her money if she can deliver. Could be Russia, could just be shady media, could be shady media with ties to Russia or all of the above. If any ties to RT come out then we know for sure. But the Intercept is good enough in my book. After 2016, you would think it would be good enough for anyone.


Why Russia is going to target Biden but fail:

This is going to be a short one but yeah:

www.cfr.org/election2020/candidate-tracker/joe-biden 

You can ctrl + F Russia yourself.

And then you can explain to me why Putin would want any of that happening? That's your claim after all and it's very weak itself. Russia is real unlike the Deep State. But of course yes scapegoating can happen. But now that we are in a general election with someone that Russia does not want to win because they get in the way of their empire's goals? Yes, any activity of theirs is going to be viewed as an attack. It's the normal reaction to last election. Anything that is off, like a Putin loving woman making up a claim is going to have be under the eyes of heavy doubt and lo and behold, she is full if shit but let's see what else comes out about her, of course. Anyone else making any sort of stance that has ties to Putin is going to get thrown out too. It's telling that Jesse Ventura maybe wants to run for the Green party now that their likely nom does believe Russia did 2016 meddling. Unlike the last Green party nom who dined with Putin and General Flynn. Our country has enemies and we need to take them seriously.

Russians will use whatever they can online and push whatever hurts Biden but they can only really go off of what online folks are saying. But online folks have been wrong this entire cycle. Again Biden can't be Hillaryed. He is an old white liberal man who is folksy. That's the strongest type of politician in this country.


Personal, class, state and expert stuff:

Never said you're not of the working class nor am I using my class as a defense or an excuse. I will say you use your degrees a lot to win out on pointless little nothings in discussions that are huge wastes of time. Deal with the points at hand then you can give English lessons all you want. The thing that bothers me more, and this is more than just you here, people are using the politics of their college to think they have good idea of what the working class wants. College kids are not a voting block that matter but they think they are. I really don't see the point in listening to them on other voting blocks that do matter. They say things we have heard a million times and oh look they say we want things we don't want. If we say anything that goes against their views, oh we are voting against ourselves. For all the talk that the way to win these kids is not by insulting or shaming them, they dish it out plenty to people they actually need to win. I mean the only other poster of the same voter block as me came here against some of this stuff in a kind way and was told to fuck off by being ignored by guys like Sim with bad excuses. Love the guy but uni fucked with him badly and I can only hope someday he learns to listen.

And yes Lopez, you need my block of voters more than 18 year olds. You need me more than I need you. Which is why these talks need to ensure I come out of it hearing how your plans can win me over. And I can be won over. 


And before I move on, I am not saying college is bad. Been around them all my life and know how they work. Again, it's why I can say dead, useless and wrong philosophers like Marx are taught in philosophy classes and not econ classes. I do know enough about em. Plan on going after I secure my own safety net and avoid debts as much as I can. Along with getting out of my own terrible living situation. But that's all pointless to discussion other to say, I am the voting block you need at the moment, so try and not act like I am the stupid one here. 


Besides that, no I do not claim to be an expert but I am smarter than you here about politics and make up of this country. This forum is the platform that shows it and we are going to get into more of this as we get into the two party set up we have here but so far I know better than you do and gonna address it once more.

Your state will swing Biden. 100% for sure. Trump has conceded it in the same way Bernie conceded Florida with his Cuba comments. The moment you do something the swing state can't stand? You have lost it. But besides that being the reason for sure it's Biden's?

The state is huge on Democrats that are pro-union and Biden fits that to a T. They are pro establishment Dems in other words.  The reason you think it's past its normal average voting pattern is because Hillary lost it. Which we can argue about it all day, my main feeling is sexism and the press's decade long grudge on her is why she fared worse there than she should have. But right after her? Biden stomped Bernie there in every county. MI is back to being what it usually is with the data we have. Bernie's support there 4 years ago was Anti-Hillary support. So yes I do agree with you they were sick of her but not of the Democratic establishment. 

You can find a million excuses to dismiss this but looking at the data is all I need here, it's what experts do as well. Admitting the more electable (that's the word here) lesser evil is just that is high praise. Because that's what we call the winner of an election. I don't have to think he is loved there, I see the data says he is more liked than Hillary and Bernie because he is what they usually go for.

I am sure you talk to people every day who think he is a loon but how many of them think he is still better for them vs everyone else? That's the question that really matters. You can find it sad that the majority went for Biden but you should also ask yourself why they think he is more electable? Because if you know your state so well you should be able to explain why? And if people dislikes both of them but those swing voters lean Biden, it means they will vote Biden more than Trump. No amount of crazy freedom & gun lovin nuts can change that chance here. So why do they lean Biden more than Trump? Even you don't hate him. It's all levels to people and it's good to get a good read on those levels.


Like I said, I claim to be no expert, I don't have degrees or a job that helps here but I do claim I know more than you. I read history books a lot, I am a huge political junkie and I talk and listen to everyone of every walk of life but the most important and only thing that matters? I listen to experts because they are smarter than me. I'll take you thinking I seemed to be good at this with respectful appreciation. But no I am not crazed Biden fan. The man is cool by my book since it's easy to relate to him and he is good with people because he relates and does what we want, I do think that. But I am mainly pro-Democrat that can win. That's what my thinking was 4 years ago that night Hillary lost, it's gonna be Biden and if there are no other viable options, it's gonna be him. I know you see him as the sidekick and number 2 and I hear that. He just ends up fitting to be what a lot of our strong noms and strong presidents happen to be, to the Democratic party and its voters.

Anyway I can at least say a lot of people who disagree with me think I am either smart or good at this. lol Usually more on the left than the right (god I miss destroying the right) but yeah. See Sim wishing I was a leftist because I do know what can help his cause. And yeah I do know what the left can do to win and work here in this country, not tankies, but the actual viable left. It's just not what he wanted to hear and I can't do anything with that. 


As for young people and why they are non-voting voters? There really is no exact answer we can give based on the data. We can bring up some election conditions made shitty by the GOP but those usually hurt minority voters more who all happen to be Democratic base voters. But that's on real voters. Why do young people who can be politically active like well activists just don't vote? I don't know. It's been guess work for years upon, pretty much ever since Nixon vs McGovern where the young boomers who protested Nixon just did not show up to vote.

My personal theory is because they don't understand the responsibility of their voting duties and how to use power for change. They don't get they can really enact the change they want. Their activism is good group projects of their friends and I'm sure fun, to make that push for positive change at the powers that be. The problem is they don't know what to do besides that. You can't make change without power so I think they might be scared of that? To be told you can make the president or even you can be the president! Is kind of scary to them. I recall from a recent Hillary Clinton book, she talked about when she met activists for democracy in Egypt and she asked them what they were planning to do once they took power? They figured someone else would take the lead and just make it all happen. It's just a terrible way to go about making change for good. And it's why my opinion is the same as Hilldawg's, activists are hard to respect there generally. My best friend hates political talks and thinks everyone here is a huge nerd for talking about it. He does listen to NPR and he does vote for the Democrat because that's good enough for him and that's all anyone can ever expect from him. He is still more powerful than the millions of activists his own age that don't vote and I know he does not get that but he does wish young people sure would vote though. As do I.


What is a political party? Are they fun? Nope!:

If we are going to talk about nonsense that's been around for decades that the parties are both the same we have to understand what is a political party and what is their main goal.

A political party is a group of people organized to to acquire and exercise political power. That's all they are and all they should do. They are clubs with factions among them and rankings among their members.


Lots of countries have their governments set up with them in mind, how they function with power and the control of power. Some parties that are not as popular can work together with another party close to their ideology to form a working government. But the USA?

We from day one have two sides here on most issues. From Patriots and Royalists to the Union and the Confederacy to the now duology of the Democratic and Republican parties. And the change to get from all those points to here has been ever changing. The Democrats used to be more like the GOP and they like them. Voting groups shift and change and political parties adapt to keep winning seats.

The only way to make the duology have more room for other parties is to gain power and change the system. But the only way to gain power is through the two parties. Why would anyone ever allow that to happen? It's just not viable and won't ever happen in our lifetimes, this needs to be understood or else the rest of this post will be meaningless to everyone because it's just not happening.

To get back to talking about what the two parties are is what we get from them. They have to go where it is to gain power. Voting groups here. And they explain every action both parties do to get them in the meantime.

Something that is long term bad might be good in the short term among people that the long term effect hurt and the long term bad effect might happen because the other party got in power. Either way those same people have won, the party that did good by them in the short term, their election and those same people are now party loyalists who will come out forever and ever for them. They have made or break elections, it's good to do good by them and work to ensure they get what they want. Taking them for granted is foolish.

On the other hand, steal from the other party whatever they did that helped them win elections as well. Doing things that are popular with everyone is good. Don't let the other party have that anymore, you want the power after all so be popular. You can even repackaged the thing to help your causes, anything that helps win.

You have to do what people want to be popular and win to get power to do anything.

Is this dirty? Yes. Is it the only way here to get things done? Yes. Politics is about compromise, compromise, compromise with a dash of loyalty. Most of all in a representative democracy.


The two parties are the same! All you have to do is forget about black people! Also why does my guy keep losing?:


Alright Lopez let's get into it all, I am asking if you can defend your huge excuse about why it's okay to tell minorities to fuck off and die with this poor understanding of Democrats and Republicans because that's what this discussion always amounts to. Sounds harsh out the gate right? It's because it is. I need you to understand as we talk about every issue, it's not me saying I am pulling a gun on you to vote Biden, it's me seeing you hold up an assault rifle on groups of minorities and people with pre-existing conditions and you pulling the trigger comes down to who you vote for. That's what the responsibility, duty and power of voting I bring up means. I am not going to talk about this without the weight of it all known. So let's see if you can back up your claims to convince me it's okay to murder more people because of the frustrations of the failed quest for what you want right now. I am going to be as polite as I can be here but this is the reality of what I see you as.


First I have to cool off with something a bit more light before I get back into that line of thinking with every topic. So gonna quickly go over what people in this thread think and what I get from them. Anyone that's not HYR that finds it wrong can just my wrongs and I'll say "okay buddy" and if it helps I am all gonna name you off as Sentai rangers because it's been forever since I Toku posted.

HYR the red "tankie" ranger: I am not taking anything this lunatic says seriously at all. He rather kill off huge amounts of this country for his boner. As far I can tell, he is worst than even Trump is so no thanks to listening to anything he says ever. He needs to seek help and to understand this country won't ever be 4chan. He is no better than the Nazis we used to have here that wanted all Muslims dead. Pass

Isi the blue "Madoka" ranger: To be honest as I said, he does not have a clear idea about these parties or how the average American thinks. I am still waiting to see if he could understand why me and Ani and other were upset 4 years ago. Along with the idea maybe those progressives he brrings up are either not many and/or mostly already for Biden going off the polling data. But he has been open to the idea that I know my party and can explain it to him so I hope any of this helps. 

Bobo the yellow "neoliberal, whatever that means" ranger: Everything I know about the guy says he knows which party is better. 

Ani the black "Madoka" ranger: She came in here and is in the same boat as me but worse off in that she is in a red state. She has been dismissed unfairly because what else is new to leftists that don't care about idpolitics anymore. Clearly she does not want to die from Republicans so her position is not shocking. 

Obediah the orange "chill guy" ranger: He is pretty chill but I rather hear what he has to say about  both the parties himself if he wants.

Ravensword the purple "Merrill but high" ranger: Far-left but not a commie from what I see so that's good but they take things out of context so hard to trust their points on both parties being the same. And offers no other viable options so far. 

Ness the Pink "British me" ranger: She is British me. Cor Blimey.



And that leaves me the gold "gold is not money" ranger and you Lopez as the silver "convice me to care about poor people" ranger. So going off this thread it's pretty even split of people who know the lesser evil is actually good and the other side rather push for seeing it as all evil with no way to answer how to get out of having to do that.

To get into this all now, let's start the big time waster that this all is.

"similar enough that the difference is insubstantial outside of weak social promises."

Okay way to throw the civil rights movement out as a weak promise. One party fights for the rights of minorities, the other party has actively tried to kill minorities off.

Recall this primary why Biden won? Black people. Know why Republicans try to strip them of voting rights? Black people make them lose. The civil rights were a turning point that has shaped these two parties a lot in the last 60 years and needs to be understood. This is the major thing about the two parties and if you reject that, it will be hard to talk about everything here but it does makes things quite simple if you accept that.

To listen to them is how you get a good idea of them and why they are loyal to the Democratic establishment and Biden. People like Sim throw deeply fucking insulting shit around like Biden is only liked because of Obama.

It is of course physically impossible for black voters to look at the options presented, consider the unreliability (at best) of white voters, consider how Biden was the only candidate to not take them for granted and actually make inroads with them, consider how Biden is a known quantity, consider how the only damn thing that matters is throwing Trump out of the White House, consider how safe and steady liberalism is better than whatever unpredictable and untested revolutionary horseshit Bernie was peddling, consider how Biden is perhaps the first old white man in American history to willingly and happily play the sidekick to a black leader (and if you don't understand the significance of this, you don't understand race in America), consider how Biden's ideas seem more feasible than whatever the shibboleth going around the left is this week, and consider how Biden is largely beloved by Obama coalition and come to the conclusion that he would be best for the job as it stands.



No, clearly it's just name recognition and nothing else.

So yeah the views on social promises? Yeah explain why black people are not going to budge to anything but the Democrats and why Republicans don't even bother to go after them (Except Trump does try and go after them but lol he is stupid and out of his goddamn mind.) and instead try to ruin their lives and freedoms?

"weak populist plans from democrats clearly designed to Garner partisan support"

Oh no, doing things that their base likes! You have to explain this one. Because yeah I know you view them as weak, you view the ACA as weak rather than the amazing achievement it was to start a path to universal healthcare. Whereas Republicans just want people with pre-existing conditions to fucking die. 

"shows and displays of party loyalty"

It's a political party. Voting in people who dislike it and want to control it is not going to happen. Biden is going to push Democrats because of course he is and that's a good thing. Who cares if that's what the other party does too? This is how parties work.

And minorities or people with pre-existing conditions' fates mean nothing to this point either. The Democratic party is better for them.

"unwillingness to curb wealth and corporate oligarchy"

Biden's going to tax rich people more and overturn citizen united. The GOP would not do this. Plus everyone has the same power to their vote. Want an end to stuff like this? Vote for someone to do it. Biden's a good start I hear.

"participation in corporate oligarchy"

Same thing as the above. Money is influence and a great source of power but it's not the end all here. Ask Joe Biden who won his primary without the help of big money. Though if you're expecting any politician to support not taking money from money groups for elections, I don't know what to tell you but it's never going to happen until you shift who helps more in elections. Again, shockingly Biden is a good start.

"subversion of American rights and democratic process"

See Black people again. Republicans try to fuck them over so much when it comes to being allowed to vote, yet they come out for Democrats who don't do that. You have to explain to me why they do. A lot of this discussion is going to be centered around them because guess what, besides just being better in general, the Democrats are better for their voters and their rights than the Republicans are. And that is a huge world of difference that is going to be the major thing you have to combat here if you want to be seen as valid with your opinions.

"positive reaction to use of force abroad whole publicly decrying it"

Foreign politics are complex nets upon nets of complexity. The average voter is sick of war so it's good to be public about how bad they are and of course, make the gains to get out of said wars. But for the most part we are stuck in these affairs for many reasons and in general, it's better to trust Democrats with them than Republicans. Ask the Kurds about that one.

"lack of support for programs that would directly address social issues they claim to be for addressing"

The ACA has saved how many lives that would have been lost? Hell I would be in super mega debt without it myself so the fact they want to make it better for people is countering you right here. The Equality act as well helps a ton. 

Again you can't just ignore how much they help people and how much the Republicans hurt them. Your argument tends to be it's not good enough, I'm sorry, that does not work.

"Russia <=> Deep State"

One is real, the other is not. Says it all right here, doesn't it?

"the shift to right that's happening"

Biden's platform is more progressive than Hillary's who also had a very progressive platform. He also put a progressive on his team to vet for a VP, is ensuring Bernie gets to keep all his delegates, even the ones he lost, has a climate plan that is viable and good. Along with the rest of platform, you are seriously getting a good deal here if you're a progressive.

And it makes sense why the double down on all of this. Last election was a lost where the loser had 3 million more voters. One could say she won the battle of ideals here that leftists oh so love to say. So another progressive run makes sense. Most of all when it's actually viable.

If you view this all as going right because you don't trust any of it, that is on you. But presidents have to try and do their best to ensure the promises are kept. And if you don't vote for them and never will? You get no say in accountability and you will be ignored.

"Biden is a very conservative liberal"

Incorrect. 

Joe Manchin is a conservative liberal who is still better than the most liberal republican. 

Joe Biden is the Democrat median. He is as left as the party voters who support him. He listens to them and does what we want. 

Said this before had Bernie and maybe Warren never ran? We probably would be talking about how Biden won because he is more to the left of Hillary. He ending up as the moderate because we boxed him in there but the truth is, he is what the Democrats are and want.

Last "conservative liberal" president was LBJ. Who if not for Nam, would have been the greatest president we had since Abe. So while I get your issues and views, I know what I am getting here and pretty happy with this party and all that they have done. At least they do somethings that  good. Which is better than doing nothing or causing harm by intention.

"And he himself is very symbolic of many of these things."

Joe is viewed as the union guy everyone likes. That's the major thing people take from him. If all these things are Republican-like or bad, why did he win 70% of all the Democratic voters?  Why do the voting blocks of the working class and minorities go for Joe? You can't compare the two parties much less their voter bases. It's like you telling me I am of the right when I keep supporting left-wingers and have been forever. You don't understand the loyalty of Democratic voters or what they are like.

"I'd honestly be surprised if your pro-Biden bias would tolerate conversation around any of these points especially when it comes to scrutinizing his policy and comparring it to conservatives across the board."

It was very easy. Because it's all incorrect or meaningless. It all comes down to caring about those who suffer or not. Will folks still be hurting and dying with the Democrats and Joe? Yes. Will there be a lot more suffering and deaths under Republicans? How is this still even a question at this point? Who cares if I have bias that helps more people? Who cares how close Biden seems to be like conservatives or not? Who cares about his policy? 

We know who is better already. We know who will do more good, or less bad if you prefer. And right now, you are considering voting for a man who voted against a anti-lynching bill. And no I won't source this, because I want you to feel the weight of searching for "Justin Amash voted against anti-lynching bill." Truly a swell guy worth wasting a vote on.

The moral argument is just not on your side here.

"the only reason be doesn't have more widespread conservative conversions is because he is very much on the blue team not the red team." 

Yeah because Republicans usually vote Republican, that's pretty normal. That said, still amazing Biden has pulled a lot of know name Republicans and groups like the Lincoln Project. And seeing Lindsey Graham come to Biden's defense with this Tara Reade nonsense? We might see that old senate bipartisanship return to the GOP. All it took was putting an old white guy in charge of the party again. Can't wait for that to get thrown out when he picks his VP. Hey Lopez, you want to know who will actually get vile hatred thrown at them in the Biden ticket? Hint, it's not the old white guy.

And yes I prefer to get Republicans who might take away a voter or two from Trump to either Biden or not vote rather than Joe Rogan. Who I will bring up again to see if you have changed your mind as you brought up cross the isle support and  you saw no problem with that endorsement. Because all Joe Rogan did was call Black People Apes and N-Words, Insist being molested as a kid is what makes people gay, Scream 'YOU ARE A FUCKING MAN' at a Transwoman and many other things. But he endorsed Bernie so that was all okay!

Hint for future elections, make sure your guy never touts an endorsement from a man like that.


Before I end out this post I do want to bring up the idea that somehow electing Joe Biden will result in the mega smart version of Trump again.

I don't believe in the whole "there will be a competent version of Trump soon!" scaremongering.



Mainly because it fails to understand the main thing about Trump that powers his cult. Which is his authentic lack of filter and authentically chaotic bull in the China shop.

He is actually as dumb and pigheaded as appears, that's what they want and like.



A competent version of Trump would be lacking that "just like me and my moron buds from the bar/golf course!" he would be some kind of slimy schemer and that would blunt the attraction.

More to the point we have already seen competent self-aware Trumps.

Newt Gingrich was one, Ted Cruz was another. They both flamed out badly (especially the much more truly Trump like one, Gingrich).



The real danger is the same as it has been since Reagan. You get a sort of soft headed rosy cheeked swell fella (Reagan, Bush Jr) or a soft headed grumpy reflection of the Fox News fanbase except rich (Trump), and you use them to pass and do all the heinous shit.



Cheney, McConnell and those types would never win directly. They use the populist soft heads to get the seat and use it. The one Republican president since 1980 that wasn't a soft head was Bush Sr, and welp he won riding on Reagan's coattails, and then lost to Clinton (who exuded a lot of the same populist swagger Republicans like).



It's good to understand their party and base too to get why they are not the same. And just helps in general to get why they win and lose. Much like I can tell you what you want for the left.


I do believe the left needs to keep doing something that has been working, which is work hard on smaller races. Elect more AOC's to congress and state govs, aim for those branches that are in reach. And be ready to push the narrative and overton window in doing so.



Also any and all sneering about "identity politics" is extremely toxic bullshit, and maybe three degrees apart from the alt-right in spirit. And needs to immediately go into the trash bin.

For godsakes, the leading lights of the Left in congress who aren't geriatric are a Puerto Rican, African-American, Somali, and a Palestinian. And literally all are women.

That should fucking tell you something, and it damn sure isn't "RACE AND GENDER ARE IRRELEVANT, EVERYTHING IS ABOUT CLASS"

That's it, that's literally all you need for the Democrats to be what you personally want.


Anyway ending this post on the point that if you still want to mount a defense you really need to get I am going to throw the needs of the vulnerable in your face at every turn. This is not me trolling, this is me dead serious and where I am coming from. People's lives are at stake, the people who don't care and see both parties as the same are apathetic South Park fans who just don't care about the world around them. But at least they are honest about it. Can you say you actually care? And do you care enough to compromise like everyone else does? Biden was many people's 2nd or 3rd or 4th or 5th and maybe even further down choice but he is their choice now. Because the alternative is just evil and not what our nation nor the world needs. Your finger is on the gun Lopez, I hope you know proper gun safety.

"Communism" refers to a setting where there exist no states, no money, and no class hierarchies. In lieu of states, society is run by... local-level communes (that's where that comes from).

As for your anecdote, I won't claim to know what your dad talked about with him w/r/t FDR, but I know enough about Chomksy's political philosophy to have a pretty good guess (I audible'd his book On Anarchism). He is of the opinion -- on the Leftist question of "Reform or Revolution" -- that reform is itself revolutionary, so I am not surprised he would think that about FDR.

And I mentioned, in that TL;DR post about Chomksy, that I have my share of issues and disagreements with the guy (me and a lot of other leftists). Well, here is where we start to get into them. He has a bad habit for indulging fact-free history.


Asked on his deathbed what his greatest achievement was, FDR said: "Saving capitalism."